By Ines Schinaz
I spoke with Penelope Trunk, the founder and CEO of Brazen Careerist.com
Ines: You talk about how your own career never had a straight path. How did you get the idea for your blog? Was there a particular experience that made you decide to create it?
Penelope: I was a columnist at the “Boston Globe,” and I was writing a column about Blogging, because so many people were talking about it. I thought the column would be about what a waste of time it is, because I have so many friends spending all their time on their blogs and not making any money from it. But as I was doing the research for the column, I realized that the blogs were helping them in ways that weren’t monetary but that were huge for their careers. So I ended up writing about how if you want a really big career, that’s stable and lucrative, then you should blog. Then I realized, “I don’t have a blog, I should have a blog before the column launches…” So I put one together really fast, and that’s kind of how I started blogging.
Ines: How did you come up with the idea for Brazen Careerist?
Penelope: So the blog got big really fast, because it’s career advice for generation Y, and there was nobody giving it at the time, I mean they were giving it, but it was terrible advice. Then, companies started asking me to consult with them on how to recruit and retain generation Y. I kept telling the companies, “You have to have conversations with Generation Y. You can’t just spam them with job postings.” The companies would ask, “Where do we have these conversations?” I said, “online.” But then I realized, there’s not really a place to have a conversation with someone in their 20’s online, unless you go to Facebook. But on Facebook everyone’s got this really raunchy stuff… It’s very personal, and it’s not a very professional way to present yourself. So I launched Brazencareerist.com for people in their 20’s to present themselves professionally.
Ines: In the post “My name is not really Penelope” you explain how your career became so closely tied with the brand “Penelope trunk” that you actually became the brand and that calling yourself Penelope (both in your professional and personal life) was the only way to keep things from getting too crazy. That post got me thinking about identity in the digital age. In your opinion how has the concept of identity evolved and changed along with the evolution of technology? Do you feel that identity has become more fluid, flexible, and open? Or has technology tied us down, to a more rigid and permanent identity?
Penelope: People who grow up online are much smarter about managing their online identities. They don’t make the mistakes that people who are older make. They are also less rude online. Some people who are older, feel like they have anonymity online, so they don’t realize everything can be traced back to them. Younger people are much better behaved online, because they think of it as public and not anonymous. So I think in general, younger people are good at knowing who they are, both offline and online, and not compartmentalizing themselves in some schizophrenic, messed up, way. I think that this is good. We should all be our best selves wherever we are.
Ines: Anyone who reads your blog knows that you are really interested in the study of “happiness.” In the post “The connection between a good job and happiness is overrated” you express the idea that “quality of relationships impact your level of happiness more than your job does.” My question is, in this “digital age” when so much of our social interaction takes places via cyber space, do you believe there will be a decrease in meaningful personal relationships thus decreasing our levels of happiness? Or will we simply establish meaningful relationships through these new technologies?
Penelope: Well, what we see with generation Y is that they are much better offline, at both communicating and maintaining relationships. So, I think it actually has more to do with a generational experience than with “online” or “offline.” One thing you can see is how differently younger people and older people use Twitter. The average age on Twitter is 40. It’s mostly older people using Twitter to publicize stuff that they do. Younger people use Twitter to meet offline. I think that’s kind of a metaphor for how generations are using online technology. Older people are using it as a one-way conversation, to avoid connection. Younger people are using it to establish connection offline. This is true of lots of different media, for example, “facebook.” Older people use it to get reconnected with people they’ve lost touch with, and will probably never see again. Young people use it to stay in touch with people who they already have meaningful relationships with. In general, I think younger people are better at communicating, than older people… I don’t think it has anything to do with technology. While you guys were having a dictatorship in Brazil, all the American housewives were on Valium, because they couldn’t cope with being housewives. The culture of hiding what’s not going well, or hiding what you don’t want people to see, is something that isn’t as prevalent for the younger generation. They are more willing to share.
Ines: You often talk about how blogging makes you feel tied to a community. In your opinion, are we moving toward a world where “communities” exist mostly in the online world?
Penelope: We know that humans are fundamentally social. So no matter what you do with humans, they will want to socialize. We know that if you don’t touch babies they die. Because of our fundamental human need to both be social and to be touched, we would never, not be in communities in person. If that were to happen, we wouldn’t be fundamentally human. So it’s like a non-issue.
Ines: In your opinion what can we do concretely to get: veterans, baby boomers, gen x, and gen y to coexist most peacefully and productively in the workplace?
Penelope: Fire all the people who won’t collaborate. The employer has the upper hand right now in the job market. We are in a recession. Anyone who is not getting along across generations should just be fired.
Ines: But you don’t see that as being the vast majority of baby boomers who have some trouble getting along with generation Y?
Penelope: Just because you are annoyed by another generation’s take on things, doesn’t mean you aren’t working well with them. In general, generation X is the most annoying to everyone. The baby boomers, everything they do, they think they reinvent the world as they do it. So, they think they reinvented the idea of teamwork, and caring about people, and having meaning in life. They didn’t reinvent it, but their kids, generation Y, are very much like that. The result of that is that the baby boomers and generation Y, at this point in their lives want the same thing. It happens that baby boomers spent 40 years wanting selfish, gross, offensive, things, before they got to this. But whatever, at this point baby boomers and generation Y are pretty much aligned. It’s generation X that’s totally annoying to everyone. But in general, generation X, is getting most of the work done, which is the way it’s been the whole time, with baby boomers and generation X in the workplace. The people at this point who can’t get along, are so far behind the curve, they should just be fired. The consulting industry for getting along between generations is 10 years old. It’s a 50 billion dollar industry. If people can’t get a grip, they are morons.
Ines: Your blog blurs the line between the public and the private.I recently saw an art exhibit by the French artist Sophie Calle, that turned a breakup e-mail from her boyfriend into artwork. The exhibit reminded me of your blog, in the sense that Calle also doesn’t keep secrets, and revealed her private life very openly. What do you think about the concepts of the “public” and the “private” in the digital age?
Penelope: I’m in a unique situation because I get paid to navigate the boundaries between the public and private. So I get away with more than other people do. I get paid to tell people how to have great careers, and people see my career as great. So I can just tell them how to be me. I have a much more murky boundary than most people.
Ines: In the post, “What to do in college to be successful in your career,” you advise college students to take an acting class. Has the need to “act” increased along with our increasing use of technology?
Penelope: Today as things are more open and transparent, authenticity is what’s rewarded. And actually a good acting class, teaches you how to be more authentic.
Ines: Many people argue that we are experiencing the biggest generation gap ever. Will the generational gap keep getting wider? Or do you think the gap will actually diminish?
Penelope: In the U.S. something like 60 percent of young people move back home with their parents. So there’s like not a generation gap at all. The kids and the parents are getting along perfectly. Generation Y kids love their parents. So the generation gap is at work, where older people have climbed the ladder and sold their souls so they can get to the top of the corporation and now young people aren’t climbing the ladder, so older people are totally pissed off. But if you go home the kids and the parents have very similar values.
Ines: Right. But what happens when the values generation Y learns at home don’t carry out into the workplace?
Penelope: It’s not a huge generation gap. It’s a failing of corporate life. The idea that you sell your soul to a corporation, and that corporation takes care of you for your whole life, is over.
